Victoria Ichizli-Bartels is the author of Gameful Habits, and writes about Self-Gamification, her unique approach to turning anything in life into fun games. She is a semiconductor physicist and consultant, among many other things. Find her work at https://www.victoriaichizlibartels.com and pick up Gameful Habits on Amazon today.
The GodXP Spiritual Fitness Podcast: Level up your spirit, realize more power. Join us as we talk consciousness, spirituality, mental health, psychedelics, psychotherapy, self-realization, and personal development to inspire advancement in our lives. This is the consciousness expansion show. Together we share stories and seek to discover applicable truth and wisdom for life. With your host Anthony Polanco: Music artist, depression recovery author, and former Christian missionary-turned-meditation coach. Follow us on Social Media: @wearegodxp on Twitter, IG, Facebook and https://www.godxp.com
Hey, what's up? I'm Anthony Polanco. This is the god XP spiritual fitness podcast. Our guest today is the esteemed Victoria Ichizli Martel's. She's a Russian electroconductive physicist, author of over 22 Books 11 of which are on gamification, which is a concept in topic very dear to my heart. Really hope you enjoy it's packed with insight. Please do look up her stuff optimist writer is her website. Also Victoria ichizli bartels.com and her latest book gameful habits, which you can find on Amazon. I ordered mine, we can read it together. Without further ado, enjoy this episode on self gamification, awareness and self realization. Alright, everybody, welcome to the godXP podcast once again. Very excited. I'm Anthony Polanco. I'm your host, overall, really excited to talk about soft gamification a concept that's dear to my heart and get to know you a lot more Victoria, how are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. And thank you for the ability to share self gamification with others because it's, I think it's just an, you could say an open secret. And I think it's worth sharing. I totally agree. And I just the internet's in, it's so vast, but it allows you to find ideas that are similar to yours. And it's in a way a vacuum, if you really start looking for the things you want and finding your writing. It's really encouraging, inspiring. I've tried gamifying my own life for the last several years. And so to hear someone who's put a lot of thought into it, express the concepts and the philosophy of gamifying. Yeah, it's really helpful, and really good work you're doing. Thank you so much. And I agree completely that it is it can be seen in everything. I recently, I'm finishing to read a book, which is called Real, the relaxed author by one of the authors is Joanna pen, and she is a New York Times Best Selling self publishing author. And at the end of the book, she and her co author, say, if you want to be a relaxed author, then start with awareness, then start with identify what you can do right now. You could think of small steps, and we will talk about telecommunication in a minute. And then the third one is action, take action. And it's really games. This is what you're doing. And so I was so again amazed how this truth, which I stumbled upon and just happened to formulate, and we're into words, but it can be found and everything. Yeah, it's it is an amazing thing, to have a realization that really transforms your life. And I first read read, I was reading mind hacking by John Hargrave, it was in 2016. And he talks about gamification, creating mental models for hacking your habits. And that was my first really intro into the idea. And I was in a place in my life where I was didn't have a lot going on. So I felt really lucky to gamify my life just from scratch, create a new board game in a way living, it has allowed me to reflect on how gamification it took a lot of stress out of my life and allowed me to pursue goals that I might have been too intimidated to pursue making it a game, making it fun tracking my progress. I think some of these things, they can come to you naturally after a hardship, where you have a place in your life where you can stop for a while, and then decide, Okay, what if life was fun? And then try to make it try to make a game out of it? Exactly, yes. And actually, we can also discover that some of the challenges, they become the challenges that we actually can and want to you know, overcome and in games, and this is what the game designers call, for example, Jane McGonigal describes it in her book, Reality is Broken. It's New York Times bestselling book, there is a term she actually quotes another designer saying hard fun. So this is what gamers actually love why they actually maybe don't watch TV that much because they are in the state, which is called Flow ads that you are so engaged, that you don't want to either lose or win the game. You just want to stay in there in the process. And this is what is also possible in real life and why self gamification is so helpful. I will introduce if it's okay, right now, it's a combination of, I call it anthropology Kaizen and gamification, but basically, it's a combination of three skill sets. Being aware of right now just being aware of the thought processes of ourselves. The second one is the skill set of breaking anything challenge be the dream the goal task project whatever into smallest, most digestible and most effortlessly manageable bits. So if I have a dream that identify the smallest if I have a dream to write a book, and writing a chapter is too overwhelming for me, then writing a sentence, this would be my next step. So identifying the smallest, the one that I can do immediately with whatever I have. And the third one is games, game fullness, playfulness, padding, whatever it is either a silly rule, like writing the next paragraph, taking a notebook and sitting under the table, or somewhere else, or putting music or going writing while walking, or giving yourself points. So adding all those gameful things to it, and celebrating gameplay. So this three things, awareness, small steps, or small bits, and game fullness, that's it. And I call it the Swiss Army knives, you have one knife with a screwdriver, knife, and a fork. And it's brilliant for hike, you have your to universal tool. This is what what I consider self gamification to be it's your universal tool on any hike in your life. So the second one was was figuring out the schema of the situation, your desires, you said? And that was the anthropology. Bit right? Could you go into that a little bit? Yes, I learned about it from a word award winning authors area and Chaya Kay. And they have an amazing idea. They have written many books, and also they have a podcast being here. And they also have their leaders of international seminars, and I was lucky to take part on some of them, it was really amazing. And I read all their books, I really recommend it. So they say observe yourself anthropologically, as if you would be a culture one person. And we basically are if you can see the country, a culture, and there is another culture, which leaves nearby, there is this dynamic, someone says something, some and so on, and there are reactions. And so the same happens with us. We are colored by different cultures, but we create a culture for a home with our thoughts with everything that happens to us in our lives with a history of one person. And if we observe ourselves as a culture, but anthropologically, without judging, this is the amazing if you think of an anthropologist traveling to a country and researching it, that the culture, they make notes, but they don't judge it. They don't say, Oh, they do something strange, but they just describe what is happening without judgment. And it is also possible to do about ourselves. For example, when I complain and literally really live through this complaint, or sometimes don't notice it, I just complain about something. But if I take a little bit to look at it, anthropologically, I noticed that I frown and then suddenly, oh, I frown and then when I notice it, then the frown goes away. It's Oh, wow, I didn't notice that. And suddenly I see a smile. And that's it. My upset is gone. And that's that's just the amazing power of this being here and awareness. And it's also very gainful, because you suddenly see it with humor. So that is why I like the combination of the three because they really like a synergy. Yeah, that is amazing. That is such a great framework. And so many people could benefit from even myself. We're constantly working on my awareness, trying to solve my own dilemmas quicker. Even for me, like you said that the unconscious thinking can take over negative thought patterns. It's a comfortable habit because you allows you to baby yourself and be like a spoiled baby. So sometimes you can lose your emotional discipline. And so it's good to have techniques like this. It's good. You need techniques. Yes, yes, you need to so definitely and it's one of the tools and what I like about awareness or anthropology, but also about Kaizen is that the realization that upset are not bad. They're just information. That's it. Actually, you have your intuition signaling you through upset saying, Oh, wait, look what's happening. You just need to pay attention. And that there's that was an amazing epiphany for me. And why I said that also came from Kaizen is Kaizen is about small steps by breaking down into the smallest bits and my sole go to person about Kaizen and I read his his books, both books on kaizen. It's Robert Mauer and his professor to UCLA. And he has one quote in one of the books that that just was so amazing for me, so I paraphrase maybe a little bit I don't remember what by word, but he says if you notice that you resist a small step. It means this step is still too big. That was wow. I wrote and published a book called five minute perseverance game But I noticed that I couldn't do some things in five minutes. And I realized, okay, maybe five minutes was way too long. So let's break it down. And I took like straight poster. And I took this for four months, just for 15 seconds. And it worked. I did it every single day, even if I saw that I didn't want you to practice straight posture. And it's just amazing this realization. So it's, if I resist something, it's not bad. It just means that something doesn't work. And I just need to look what doesn't break. Break that thing down more. Wow, exactly. That's another point of awareness. A realization point, whenever you reach friction, know that you're you can break that signal down, divided into an easier component. And a lot of times we get to that point, and our subconscious will just changed the scenes, they do something else. So in those moments, that's when you need the awareness. Like in that moment, as soon as you reach that friction point, instead of changing your mind to something else. Look at and realize I can break this down, and then I can keep going through. Absolutely, yes, awareness is like a torch, it just illuminates what is happening. And so what you're saying is, at a certain point, even five minutes of concentration can be too much. And so if you break it down into two minutes, one minute, or even 15 seconds of concentration, just to keep yourself in the game instead of tuning out into the unconscious river of life again. Yes, and that depends on the game. So sometimes, your game could be not necessarily a point in time. And actually, a time is always on my desk, always. But just for example, I don't have a paragraph of text. That's it. So you just give yourself a certain bit of work that you do. And you say, for example, when I self edit, sometimes I procrastinate. So I say okay, I will do just one paragraph of text and give myself a point. And at some point, because this motivation comes over I did that actually, it was easy. I will do another one. Oh, okay, I'll do another one. And then it happens like more than several pages, even if I didn't plan to do the pages. So so how do you keep track of your points, just out of curiosity, there are different games, I have many self motivational gifts. One of them I call it project booster, which is what I just mentioned with paragraph, so if something really tedious, and I resist it very much, I just take like a notebook, or just a scrap of paper and just make the tally. That's 1234513 And I just do for every single bit and as soon as the process flows, because I'm more and more engaged it I just forget the scrap of payments all the way. Yes, exactly. And another game which is actually without recording points. It's a quite recent one I call it instead of game which means there's that an actually record but I don't recall the point I don't know if you can see it but I just record saying instead of game and then I say how many days in a row. So the game is very simple what I mentioned about frowning so I just see what is happening if I have a worry upset so I try to see what it is and what I can replace it with. So without judging I am upset now. Okay, what can I do that it's fun, it's not that I run away but the first thing I have to see it and sometimes it's actually once it happened to me that I wasn't trying to replace the worry I actually found out that my truth was to a knowledge the worry and see that I was actually running from certain things I wrote an email and so on and agreed with the person that that's what it is what was about nobody was upset at the end is that was the I was really worried and tried to get go against it and that is what I like about this instead of game because it gives me the awareness like to see what is happening what is not quite right. There are many other games were really recording streaks and so on so one of the for example the if you see sleep boy and sleep score, so this is the mice superslim like a daily guy. Yes, so I have so this is my call it yes TAS do not send etc gamebook so this is my my points are different games. So the this my streak might have my titles here, my gemstones for the sleep. I have aching joints. So I tried to work out a little bit every day. I go for a walk 7000 steps a day. I get gemstones for that and then push ups or workout with weights. I'll record all that so I get all those No points. I'm not so strict. It's silly. It's just on paper, all those gemstones, treasure, whatever. But it really, but the byproduct is my health here where awareness comes again, in game fullness, it's really important that you actually become aware of what is fun for you. So this is fun is really important in, in this, it's about fun is not only a tool that the gameful tool that you have, but it's also really your compass for how to find the way which I forget point of gamification is designed to make your life more fun making my life a game really was the mindset shift that I needed to see, I life could be a game to me, I think it's Marcus Aurelius says, you consider that you've already died. Now take what you have left and live your life. What if this was just a free pass this game of life. And that allowed me to start doing the things I always wanted to do and make it fun. It just, it was no longer the societal pressure of what should I do. But it became like, what do I want to do? And keep keeping track of the Progress similar to yours writing just like a one through 10? How have I done this weekend, overtime, looking at my progress. And that allowed me to get my life over time to a much better place just by taking an objective view of the things I'm doing and seeing how fun and fulfilling it is. And overtime, even just one through 10? How has your life gotten better in those ways you can create a game in the moment or for any problem, desire, any situation in life for you, when you first discovered games, self gamification, where were you in your life when you when this came to you? What was the origin of it for you? It's fine. It was like a discovery that I wanted to write a book, I'm actually my background is electronic engineering. And I even have a PhD there. But the bit later, many years later, after, after my PhD, I actually discovered I wanted to write a book and a book about my father and he died when I was 10 years old. And he lost actually his family during the Second World War. And that was always the always thinking it's very sad story. But actually, when I started writing about it, and I really had a big wish to do that, it turned out that it wasn't that sad. There were many happy moments in his life. And he was an amazing person. And it brought my mom and me closer. At that time I was writing the book I was taking lessons was a good friend. She's a best selling author men have and prac she had six students. And we had we been calling her on the telephone conferences. And we started complaining, saying we don't manage to work to write our books. And she said, let's play a game. Let's play just a little bit every day. Let's comment on our Facebook group. We had a Facebook group for our for us. And that's how it started. There were not concrete rules more than that. And I was really taken with that. So I was actually one of those who was really commenting every day. This month. I was like writing and commenting and asking others how we're doing and so on. And it works so well for me that I even forgot, I forgot about the game. But I was writing everyday a little bit. So as you see that, again, this came for, apart from that I was sending to a friend whom I met actually online and never met in person. I sent her bits and pieces of the book and she was commenting on it. She wasn't editing anything, but she was asking is saying what it reminded her in her life. So there was feedback from her it is you see that it's there is feedback, like in games. So there is something that Kant was coming back. And then I published the book, and then I started my own business and at that time, and I also had the second child and we moved houses so many things happened. And friends started asking me how do you do that? How do you manage so many things? And then I recalled the game I said let's play the game. They said okay, let's do it. Concrete time, five minutes, and it will be four months and if you do five minutes, then you have one point if you play if you write less you can learn language or do something else. If you do less than five minutes but do something then you get half a point. If you don't do it anything that then the point goes to your procrastinating self. So what happened you were not losing the game, but that part from you was still winning, but it was procrastinating. So you had ambitious part a part of you. That's how started started. And then I didn't know about gamification at all. And I published this book with the title five minute perseverance game. It helps one of the friends that I suggested the game was his award winning author in here in Denmark, and she couldn't run The second but the sequel of her book, and she was almost a year late to the publisher, so and she couldn't choose writing many other things blocks, but she couldn't progress with this make progress was her book. And I suggested the game. And she ended up writing more than five minutes a day, but just this this small battery, like 55 minutes I will do. And then that's it. And that just boosted her. And within a month, she wrote the whole signal and send it and also commended us this finding words like this reaction from France and from her and from others, just seeing how much this could help. That is why I wrote the book. Later, a friend whom I told about the book, she said, Oh, we I heard about it in college. It's called gamification. I was gaming what? So I started immediately on that day, I came and started googling. During the time I heard about kaizen. So oh, okay, small steps I do five minutes a day. That's it five minute perseverance game, I wrote just five minutes a day, just 6000 words in a month, five minutes a day. So really, because when you write a manuscript, for example, about 5060, or from starting with 60,000 words, it's a novel considered old, maybe 7072. So you could actually within the, within one year, write a book. By five minutes a day, I have also other books, but on turning life into fun games, this is the 11 books. And I at some point, I started, I heard about gamification, I thought itself hope so I started saying self gamification. Yeah. And one day, my sister says, we are talking about it and what I'm doing, and then she Googled, and I googled the same time. There is no one at the top, I was like, we both checked and different places like Wow, and so I started doing more and more. So when there was a lockdown, my editor had an idea, right? Something about that, how to cope with a situation, or blogging, I write on medium a lot, one of most my, my most successful articles on medium, but also online. It's real life role playing games. And I recently realized that the first one I read that really grabbed me, in real life role playing games, okay. Great. And it's actually it's, it has a lot of use every day. I was, really, so I'm exploring it and actually writing a new compiling, and I'm going to do it to structure Choose Your Own Adventure book. That's awesome. Because that's actually what is our lives, we choose our own adventures. And they also wrote the concept of my I have a meditation camp, we do one week camps, they're self authoring. The whole idea is that we're playing a one player game in life, the game is for you to decide. And the camp is designed. It's like a one week camp, similar to your book, probably where it just puts you through the framework of gamifying your problems until you solve them. And the meditation goes hand in hand, but the I read the article, because my whole philosophy is the whole life, one player game of life. And the essay did such a good job of just like, putting you in the mindset, oh, life is a game and I can use games to to make my life happen the way I want the way I've always dreamed up. Absolutely. And I like what you said about one player game. And I've discovered a psychological phenomenon. It's actually was discovered by psychologist who, who researched the game called World of Warcraft, and it's very popular game, what they've and I read it in the about it and Jane McGonigal school CReality is broken. So they have discovered that 70% of the time, people who are there, they actually they just do their own thing. So they don't play together. They just do their own things without interacting with others. But they're this idea that the others are there. And I could actually either help someone or ask for help or whatever, or do something together. This is actually what entice people, and they call it or a simplified term for this phenomenon is playing a lot together. My sister is eight and a half years older than I am. And my parents and I went to Algeria for three years, and she had to stay in the Soviet Union. We come originally from Soviet Union for this three years. So we were three years apart. But many years we were together. And actually, our interests because of the different age or big age distance were very different. But we often did something along together every everyone saw every single one of our own thing, but we were sitting close to each other and so on. And it's just amazing effect actually because you still feel together with other people. So this is how I see self gamification. It's a massively A game where you do alone, you can play games with other sometimes like project teams you participate together and so on. But still this process of self gamification, it's really, it's important that that we both aware that we're single player game, but it is a massively way we can interact right? Extreme individuation where your, your individual, but for the good of the people around you, hopefully as you because you, if you nurture yourself, then you can be a better benefit to others. And so the sad part of life is you could be extremely close to someone and still not know anything about what their experiences are, you could be married to someone for decades, and still have no clue what it's like to really be them and see the world from their eyes. And the that's what makes life individual. That's what makes it one player. Because ultimately, when you go no one will ever know what it was like to be you. And I think that's why gamification is so important. Because while you're here, why not do that thing that's always been on your heart or that those things deep down that you feel like would make make it all worthwhile. And the best way to bless the people you love and to get to give them the love that you want to give is to fully do that for yourself fully pursue this game of life and having these tools is the way to do that. Yes. And actually awareness help here helps here a lot, because you can discover other games that you don't know. And I would like to address here the definition of games by also Jane McGonigal she says that games are, so you can strip down all the complexity into just four main components, its goals, rules, feedback systems, and voluntary participation. So that's it. And that when I, when I read it, I was like, Oh, my goodness, it's everything is a game, any project, any task, anything, if you take an employment contract, you have a goal. They're saying, What is your task actually in your position as employees, then there are rules there that you should do those on those things to to accomplish this task. Then there is feedback system, you meet with your manager every month, every year or whatever. And there is a feedback through this discussions, but also maybe even written feedback. And then voluntary participation, a form of this voluntary passive participation is a signature on the contract, of course, and one of the first time I said it in the gamification community, they said, it's not quite the same because voluntary participation in game is that you can come and leave at will. And actually, it's still present in projects. If you take, for example, even a real game like World of Warcraft, you don't play 24 hours a day you play it, then you go to something else. And the same with work, we do a project, we do a task, we make a call, and so on. And then we leave it and do something else. I realized that with awareness, it's really when you are in games, if you look at the observe what is happening, then you can actually adjust any project, which is already a game in such a way that it feels like a game for you. Yeah, always gamify the moment or the small micro, Mike, there's always a micro game inside of most situations, especially involving other humans. Yes. And if you see, for example, sometimes we might resent if someone comes like, with an idea or an assignment, for example, as a teacher will come and say, do this and do that this exercise, and we might resent it. But actually, if we see it as a game, it becomes much faster or much, much easier to if somebody offers Do you want to test a game, we actually more readily try it. And if we start just being aware that any project is already a game, and we could try it, then it's like, okay, but yeah, it loses the drama. For example, this book that I mentioned, self gamification happiness formula, it actually came out of a crowdfunding campaign. It didn't work out. So I didn't didn't manage to get the minimum for crowdfunding. But actually, I realized through interaction without who those who backed me up at that time, there was the discussion there was a preparation of the book, and it ended up being my longest book and from my 11 books, it sells the best it was still worth it to try even if I realized crowdfunding is not for me. It's not the game that would play a game again, but I'm glad that I tried. This is why I would like to refer again to Ariel and Chaya Kane. They say the true listening is not to judge like we do when we listen. Usually we like very agree disagree through listening meaning listening from the point of view The person who speaks and they also say try to listen with both eyes and ears. What am I the philosophy arguments always get to me whenever I see them on the internet, I'm like, philosophy is not for agreeing and disagreeing philosophy is for reflecting and like trying to understand, and I think we do that a lot. We're great at making judgments when we can reserve judgment, then we can accept the understanding from both sides, and then maybe you can make your judgment or you can just be satisfied with having understood way better than you would have. So I guess people listening, how can they make their approach to increasing awareness, more practical, I will then answer a bit. And practically, I would say, So, stop trying to increase it, stop trying to manipulate it, when we try to modify or to change to improve something, then that means that we judge the state that we are as not good enough, it means that we are not good enough if we want to approve ourselves, this also is real and try again, they also say similar thing, that and I experienced for myself, that when you try to improve yourself, and sexually You mean you just you judging that you are not good enough, but you already perfect. Everything is perfect as it is. So the moment and I realized also learned that the word perfect means it's done complete. And every moment of now becomes the thing of the past in the next moment. So it's complete, perfect. So nothing is is bad as we judge it because sometimes even it's interesting, some people something challenging happens, like maybe they give, get a notice from the job. And it happened to be also. And then later I was saying that's the best thing that happened to but it wasn't the best. And that moment I was upset. So that that's the that the thing is that we always put some kind of weight or drama on it. But if we try to do to see non judgmentally, then we see that actually, nothing needs improvement, just having fun being here. And then it's just happens in the best possible way. And physicist was my background experimental physicist. And it's also the technical background where I have my PhD in semiconductor physics, there is a famous principle, it's called uncertainty principle. So if you tried to measure one quality of electron or particle and quantum physics, then you will measure it, but you will not be able to measure another quantity, another property of it. So and the same is in life. If you engage in one activity, you will never know how the other activity at the same time would have happened. So if you suddenly you have a story, for example, trying to write a romance story that now with this two characters, you will not know how the same would appear in the in the horror story. You could do it later. But it will be another moment. So no two things can happen in the same time and the same place in the same in the same way. So it can actually also release us because if you just concentrate on one thing and engage completely and enjoy the game, that is why the games are so nice. They simplify that I see my children playing some simulation games, for example, ironing something repairing something just on the iPad, and but it's real life things, but they are simplified. And then they unlock the levels for example, repairing some other thing has like I could do the same. So I experimented actually with wanted and unwanted activities as the next level. So sometimes I do something that they really want to answer. I'm not allowed to do this other task presented before I manage this one. And interestingly, this resented task became attractive because it was. That's fascinating. That's really fascinating, just this experimenting and without judgment. So I become more and more skilled in realizing I have this amazing lab with my brain, which is sometimes hilarious. Sometimes, of course I have those strange thoughts, but also really nice. Interesting thoughts also happened there. When I read some of my books are really I said that so it's like yeah, great. And that was several years ago. So sometimes we think that we stand we become always better. But it can be that we were already amazing and brilliant at some time. And still can be also amazing and brilliant that other time, but that doesn't mean that we were bad you become better. So that is why improvement. Yeah, I think self improvement can be this chasm where you start going down a story road that can take you for years and years, when you could have just taken one step to the side, changed one thing about your mindset and your realization could have been solved with just one because of the story of the past is just the one we tell ourselves. And I love that you said self improvement can just be a state of awareness, where you just realize I have everything I need right now. I can just enjoy this, make it a game and play the game and get immersed in the game. And there's no real pursuit needed for that. So that's really quite profound. Absolutely, yes. And there weren't actually improvement and change, they are actually byproducts. So they just happen on their own. And if we engage in who if we have fun, and now we just recall the code by Heidi clue. And it was after the America's Got Talent, one of the shows where a young ventriloquist gasoline has won at 2017, or something, until he was 12 years old. And somebody asked, I had a clue who was the judge then that they asked her? What would you recommend to Darcy now, and she said, first of all, have fun. She said, If you don't have fun, it shows. And it's really true. And I realized that I used to be envious of successful people's thinking, why do they have success? And and successful people seem to have always fun. This was actually one of the kind of I wanted to get success to have fun. But then I realized it's vice versa. Those who have have success, so funny. And then yeah, yeah. And I realized that when I started having fun, then what I was doing and actually bringing also fun. It's not that we need to judge a thing. Is it fun or not? One of the activities that turned into games was applying for a new passport. And we all resent those things in our feeling on the forms and everything. And I found something similar in a book, which was featuring Robert Mauer, whom I mentioned on kaizen. And she tried to apply for I think, for banking, some online banking, the idea was do one small thing, find, for example, for the passport, find the link of the authority where to find this word to find the information 1.1 Day done for the next day? Look for the list of the requirements. Then for the next day, what do you have already, and the funny thing happened is that I was so it was so easy to do. That was the first thing in the morning, I was doing well. And getting my point. Yes, the one I applied for the search passport in this way, it was my own and I had to go to Copenhagen. It ended up that I was chatting with the with the person there who was taking all the documents, we were laughing, smiling that we visited lift in the same city, which region and everything you can bring fun in anything so into even the most things you resent. There are things that we say we don't want to do, but actually, they if we don't give them up easily, then we want them. For example, like exam we want a degree we want to get some a specific job which needs this degree. Then we need we want the exams to because they are part of it. Having children that was the My biggest dream was was my husband together and we couldn't have for six years we have had problems getting becoming a family and having children. And I wanted them so much. It was a big dream. But when they came finally, there were challenges. It's all inclusive hotel, but it's another way of inclusive, it's not all inclusive. It includes temper tantrums of my children at equals hugs, it goes upset tears, everything, all inclusive. Another game, so absolutely, yes, yes. And, and this awareness, small steps is helped so much. And especially self awareness. This is so important. For example, sometimes I say to my children, my daughter, she was several years younger, and they said I am afraid actually in the morning to wake you up that you will be upset to be difficult. I'm afraid of you. She was really surprised, like you are so big how you could be afraid of me. I'm afraid of your reaction. And that was interesting for her. And suddenly she had compassion to me and or I invented the game once I was waking her up. And I said and that was really resenting I was again for we will have a problem again. So she wakes up and then I realized oh wait a second. It could be a game for myself. And then I said okay, I will give myself 10 points 10 minutes to wake her up. I went to her and I greeted her. I kissed her hug her. And I said, Actually, I'm playing a game that I will get you out of bed within 10 minutes. And she got so excited and helped me to win the game. Yeah, that's and this is what what I like about soft communication. It's not about specific point system which evolve all over the time. But it's about resourcefulness. It's I become some risk. So resourceful because I use I get inspired by games. So that is why I'm so interested what my children are doing. I have the dice quite close to me quite often time. It's, it's, it's really, it's something just amazing how games can enrich our life and can actually help us in finding solutions for almost any challenge, or actually, amazing. Victoria, this was super enlightening for me for my listeners. Is there any one I know I want to get you out of here on time. Is there one last bit of advice that you could give someone listening to this about gamifying their life, but self gamification, obviously, beside buying your book game for habits and I can't wait to read it? But what would be like the one last way if you could just leave them with one final thing about how they can use this information? Use this knowledge to transform their life today? What would you say? I would say you are the remember that you are the player and the designer of your games, and you have all the tools necessary. Start right now right here with what you have. And be aware that you are both the player and the designer and you have all the control and taking the responsibility for the design of your game. It's so much fun. It's just amazing fun, because you can support yourself and help yourself in any situation and empower yourself wonderful. Victoria ichizli bartels everyone I highly recommend gameful habits, her website her essays on medium and just find her on social media anyway, you can read her writing. It's very enlightening. Inspiring. And this was a great conversation. Victoria, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Have a good one everyone.